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WheelHorseman's avatar

All true; people are reluctant to compromise on anything from their "must have" lists. I don't know if it's big Pharma, or big Food, or just genetic drift, but my experience with young male family friends leads me to diagnose: low T. Unlike my friends, they don't seem to need a woman like we did; they can take it or leave it. Oh, how I wish that had been an option for me back in the day. I was miserable (and horny) all the time, but when I did find a girlfriend, I was very grateful, very romantic, and very attentive. Time, effort, and money was to be spent making her happy. Guys now? They want to use their cash to buy a better video card for their computer. It's a head scratcher...

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Frank Lee's avatar

Meanwhile all the dude wants is a chick that isn't insane and likes to have sex.

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Urs Broderick Furrer's avatar

Well said.

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Sam Dickson's avatar

I've been trying for the longest to figure out if Hawkins is an evangelical Protestant or a Roman Catholic. My opinion shifts back and forth.

This essay shifts toward evangelical Protestant because he isn't as fiercely opposed to divorce as a Latin Mass Roman Catholic would be.

[I'm what you might call a High Calvinist, the descendant of Calvinist martyrs, raised in a cold, austere, high culture Presbyterian parish in the tradition of the Church of Scotland. I'm glad tp be predestined, not needing to nice my way into Heaven like the poor Roman Catholics think they have to do and one of what people call "the Frozen Chosen", i.e. traditional Presbyterians. I'm not going to be upset with either category - Roman Catholic or evangelical - Hawkins falls into but I'm always curious about other people's religions.]

Moving on to his subject:

1. It seems to me that men and women have exaggerated expectations. They seem to think they are entitled to the pick of the litter in a potential husband or wife.

I hear young Alt Right guys say they want a woman who is (a) highly intelligent, (b) very attractive, (c) blond and blue eyed, (d) with a perfect figure, (e) who, while highly intelligent, is submissive and deferential to men, (f) traditional, (g) nonchristian and pagan.

Guys say this who are dumpy, unfit, unattractive, short, poorly educated, with no money.

How can such guys think they are going to land a wife like that?

There must be a few women somewhere who meet all these requirements but there can't be many.

I suggest to guys that if they want a woman who is intelligent but traditional and submissive, the only place they will find one is in some Church.

They don't like this.

And it's the same with the gals. I meet women in their late 30s who weigh 150 pounds, have sagging breasts and behinds, who are competitive with men and unpleasant who somehow have conceived the notion that they are entitled to a 20 or 30-something Dr. Kildaire or Brad Pitt who not only looks great but has the bulge in his pants on the right side...the wallet side.

These women don't seem to get it that nature intended for them to attract a male in their late teens or early 20s while their hair is lustrous, their skin is pink, tight and smooth, the breasts point up and their backsides don't sag.

Men are far more moved by aesthetics than women are. Women need to understand that and use their youthful looks while they have them.

My grandmother explained this to her granddaughters but I gather that either no one instructs young women on this matter or, if someone does, the words fall on deaf ears.

I think part of the problem here comes from the amount of time young people spend looking at television or magazines. They think the world is full of glamor girls and glamor boys but it's not. They think that marriage is always bliss. And it's not.

2. A personal anecdote about divorce:

My most beloved cousin was named Essie. We all adored her and she deserved to be adored.

She married young to a nice guy. They quickly produced 4 children.

We all thought Essie had a wonderful marriage.

When the 4th child graduated from high school and went to college, Essie and her husband got divorced.

We were all stunned.

I asked her about the divorce and here is what she said:

"Problems arose early on in our marriage and love dimmed and died. But neither of us can say that the other was a bad person. My husband was faithful. He was not a wife beater. He worked hard. He supported the family. He paid the mortgage. He was good with the kids. I think he would say the same things about me. We realized that the marriage needed to end for us to be happy but we agreed that come hell or high water, we would stay married and keep up pretenses until our youngest child left the house. The children had to come first. They didn't ask to be born. We had them. We owed a stable home and happy childhood to them. When the babies come along, the nonsense has to stop and you have to grow up. So we did it for the kids."

I know traditional, devout Roman Catholics will still disapprove of divorce and I respect their opinions. But I also think that my cousin was a responsible mother and she had her priorities in order.

3. A real problem for American dissidents:

The kind of guy who reads Hawkins' essays unfortunately will have a harder time finding a wife.

Our views (especially on race and Jews - two subjects on which Hawkins and I have different opinions - are extremely unpopular and financially dangerous.

Women are much more obedient to authority than men. They are not rebels. They want social acceptance.

This being the case, young guys with unpopular views face a hurdle in getting a life partner.

I don't have any advice to give such fellows or suggestions to help.

I don't have a solution.

I just recognize the problem.

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John Hawkins's avatar

I am a southern Baptist — and yeah, I do think expectations have gotten really out of whack with a lot of people. That’s setting aside the fact that getting married older has a lot of disadvantages over getting married younger that you really just don’t hear much. The older people get, the less fertile they are, the more set in their ways they become, the more baggage they have, the less attractive they are (generally) and the more cynical they become, because if they’re older and looking, they’ve probably had multiple relationships blow up.

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Sam Dickson's avatar

At last the question is answered! I'm pleasantly surprised that you are a Southerner. I would never have guessed that. You seemed more like a Westerner or Midwesterner. I'm not a "professional Southerner" (someone who is fixated on Lincoln's soldiers atrocities inflicted on Southerners) nor a "Southern nationalist" like some of my friends. So, if you had turned out to be a New England Yankee (3 of my great grandparents were New England Yankees), it would not have impacted negatively on my estimation of the kind of person you are.

And I do not regard Baptists with the snotty superiority and condescension that some Presbyterians exhibit. My father was a Presbyterian clergyman and he always spoke warmly of the tremendous role the Southern Baptists play in fighting the scourge of alcoholism among working people. He also said that if the South had a national church, like we have in the Church of Scotland, the national church of the South would be the Southern Baptist Convention.

Everything you say about the natural advantages of youthful marriage are true.

There is one last point on which both of us I know agree.

Your book "101 Things Young People Ought to Know" is surprisingly realistic about the fact that most young people (certainly most male youngsters) are going to experience sex before they get married even in a healthier, more traditional society than the mess we wallow in today..

However, while your remarks are realistic, it's clear that you are not really giving the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval to promiscuity.

I have gotten more and more puritanical as I have grown older.

But on to an example of the damage inflicted on our society by casual sex:

Several years ago I had a quiet title case in which the opposing lawyer was a youngster not long out of law school and in his mid-20s. I will call him "Jeremy."

Jeremy did a good job. We were able to resolve our clients' disputes without having to go through a full fledged trial.

When we settled the suit, Jeremy told me that he had scoped me out online and listened to some of my talks. He said he largely agreed with me and wanted to meet for lunch to discuss matters.

We talked for several hours. Our conversation delved into personal matters.

Jeremy said that he very much wanted to get married and start a family but this was difficult and time was wasting.

I told him that since there were a lot of good looking single women in Atlanta and given the facts that he was good looking, manly, smart, socially smooth and gainfully employed (all of which were true), he should have no problem finding a woman.

But then Jeremy dropped the atomic bomb on me. He pointed out something of which I was mentally aware but the details of which had never sunk in.

He said that he would have no trouble finding available women but finding a WIFE was a different matter.

Jeremy said that most women around his age had already had as many as 40 or 50 sexual partners.

I said that this could not possibly be true.

But then he elucidated "facts" which, if true (and I fear they are) support his idea.

Jeremy said that studies show that modern kids in his generation start having sex around age 15 or 16 in middle high school.

Most kids have several "partners" a year.

Therefore, many of the 25 year old girls he met had had 4 or 5 such "boy friends" over a 10 year period.

Jeremy said he realized that it was unlikely he would find a virgin to marry and he reluctantly reconciled himself to that fact, but he was not comfortable starting out what he regarded as a life time commitment that included having kids and being #41 in a chain of lovers.

I was deeply distressed by what he said.

I asked Jeremy if he had any religious commitment. He said he had been reared a Roman Catholic but was rather casual about the matter.

The only suggestion I could make was that he should consider going back to church and trying to find a woman there.

Now, what do you think of this, Baptist Deacon Hawkins?

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John Hawkins's avatar

I don’t know if the average number of bodies is that high. but have you ever heard of the three date rule? It’s far from a universal, but at this point, a lot of guys assume a woman is lukewarm on them if she doesn’t sleep with them by the third date (How that squares with wanting women with a low body count is hard to say, but both concepts are out there). Now imagine a 30 year old woman who has had 5 or 6 boyfriends and has gone out with a dozen or more guys 3 or more times AND has maybe gone out with a few a really hot guys she met on Tinder and had sex with even faster — and yes, the numbers can add up in a hurry. Even setting that aside, political differences are so big today I can’t even imagine marrying someone with the opposite political views or a feminist (although those are basically the same thing). Then, there are just incompatible lifestyle choices. Maybe your religions are incompatible. Maybe one wants kids and the other doesn’t. Maybe you like her, but she has already been divorced once and has two kids in tow. Seriously dating in 2025 is rough. It really, really is — and that’s just from the man’s perspective. From the woman’s perspective, read the article — it’s getting very difficult for a lot of people to just find someone, get married, pop out a couple of kids, even if that’s what you really want to do.

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Jerry Myers's avatar

I have seen a tremendous change in teens over the last 25 years teaching high school. The biggest on is the lack of maturity for their age. So many of my students behave like a pre-teen would. We spend an inordinate amount of time on dealing with mental health issues. If you assign a group project, the majority want to work alone because they do not want to socialize with a peer to get a job done. I have told my students many times that in the adult world, you have to learn to work with others you may not like. I was taught that lesson at home in my pre-teen years.

Many of the male teens behave like wimps. That is what we would have called them when I was in high school. I am not an alpha male, but I get things done and can hold my own with other men.

I am tired of dealing with 15 year old boys that cry when someone calls them something they do not like. They expect everyone is supposed to like them and accept them for who they are.

My wife and I started dating when I was 15 and she was 16. We married when I was 21 and she was 22. The thing that attracted us to each other was the love of science and the outdoors. In our younger years we would go backpacking and at least once a year take a 3 to 4 week trip through some wilderness area where we would go days without seeing another person. If you can spend 4 weeks in the wilderness alone with someone and still like each other, you are compatible.

We have never agreed on every thing. We do not depend on the other to fulfill all of our wants and needs. We have friends. She will spend a couple of nights a week with her female friends. I am introverted so a full day of being on stage in the classroom where I am just acting, I need downtime to recharge. She loves socializing with others, even at the end of a long day. Like many other things, we have compromised on many things. We raised a son together and are now grandparents. The glue that holds us together is family and enjoying the outdoors. Since we are both teachers, in the summer we are on a 4 to 6 week road trip. We have a small travel trailer now because, in our mid-60s, and my bad back, we do not do well sleeping on the ground. We still take long hikes when on vacation. We are looking towards my retirement (she has been retired for 3 years) because we are going to move closer to our son and his family. They live in an area with hundreds of miles of hiking and biking trails within a short distance.

We still have an occasional disagreement, but we have learned to let it go and take turns compromising for the other.

That type of relationship does not happen overnight. It took over 40 years of work and a commitment to figure things out.

This younger generation do not know how to solve problems. If they do not have the answer within a few seconds, they give up or ask Chatbot. There are no critical thinking skills. They expect others to take care of all their needs and behave that it is all about them.

Raising children requires you putting your wants and needs second or third. You do that because that is what it takes to raise healthy, well adjusted children to become healthy, well adjusted adults. Being parents was our most important job and the one we took the most pride in.

Parents today believe their needs come first and the schools are to meet the needs of their children.

Recently I read H.G. Wells Time Machine. It seems to be a foretelling of what is to come for humans. A division into two groups, one that is totally dependent on the other with the eventual extinction of humans because all of our knowledge has been lost. We are left with a society of babies incapable of doing anything to even meet their basic needs to continue living.

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John Hawkins's avatar

I haven't read that book, although I think I saw a bad version of the movie a long, long time ago. Now, I want to read it.

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Jerry Myers's avatar

I saw a short clip of the movie in an English Literature class once. I do not remember much of it except the acting was bad. A year ago last summer, I had an undiagnosed heart issue and could not do much. I had credit from Amazon so I downloaded what turned out to be the complete works of H.G. Wells. The Time Machine is considered by many to be the first Sci-Fi book written. It is long and dry. I stuck with it because the plot described what is going on today and I really could not do anything else.

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Ice Age's avatar

Too many women whore away their late teens and 20s, start looking for a husband in their 30s when their biological clocks start screaming at them like air-raid sirens and marry dudes that're confident and funny because those are the most important things, then decide they're not happy 15 years later and take him to the cleaners in the divorce.

Men are frankly being smart to avoid wifing up some dumpster fire with a double-digit body count.

You want functional relationships? Fix those things.

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Ice Age's avatar

Modern dating, for men, is basically a perverse game of disarming explosives for the chance to win a used rental car.

The way out of this mess is multifaceted: Laws to restrict divorce to provable cases of adultery or abuse, a culture that promotes the idea that happiness is getting married permanently at 22 & having lots of kids and a media that portrays whoring & wenching as low-class gutter trash behavior.

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