Interviewing Dr. Helen Smith on What Men Really Want
“Too many women have become the men that they hate.”
I’ve known Dr. Helen Smith and her husband for a long time, and she is quite the accomplished woman. She’s a forensic psychologist who has been married for 30 years to the most famous blogger of all time, Glenn Reynolds of Instapundit fame.
She initially made a name for herself with her work on kids who kill, but quite a while back, she started covering men’s issues. Her book, “Men on Strike: Why Men Are Boycotting Marriage, Fatherhood, and the American Dream - and Why It Matters,” got a lot of attention, and now she’s back with “His Side: Men Speak Out on Dating, Marriage, and Life in America.”
The new book focuses on her discussions with regular men across America and what they think about women, dating, and modern life in America. I’ve already read and enjoyed it, and you probably will, too. If you want a little preview, enjoy this cleaned-up version of the interview the two of us did yesterday.
John Hawkins: So, Helen, you talked to a lot of men for your book. What was the thing you were most surprised by in talking to all these men? What came up that you didn’t really expect?
Dr. Helen Smith: You hear so much about men not liking women, and so many men have been disappointed by women. So, I thought that maybe in some of the interviews that I would do, I would get men, maybe complaining about women. But honestly, I got almost none of that. Mostly, what men were, were disappointed by women, hurt by women, but almost all the men still, even if they’d been hurt or disappointed, still loved women.
So, I think that’s really what struck me the most was how much men appreciate and really like women, despite this whole thing with all the books you see about, you know, why men hate women. All the men that I spoke to were intelligent, nice men who were successful and really, really liked women.
John Hawkins: I think it’s interesting you say that because that is also my experience in the real world. Like, I do not meet a lot of guys you could fairly categorize as a misogynist. In fact, the last one, and I mentioned this in a column I did the other day, who I think you could call a misogynist - he was like 6’2”, had some money, and was good-looking. He was swimming in women, and he kind of thought they were crap. Anyway, that is true. I also get that same vibe.
One thing you hear constantly on social media is that basically it’s a man’s world, and women are constantly at a disadvantage and need help to get even. Do you agree with that?
Dr. Helen Smith: Oh no, I haven’t agreed with that for so many years. You know, in my early days, when I was in my twenties, I was a feminist. Not a hardcore one - I just believed in equality between men and women. And now you just see it going so far the other way. And I think it’s been like that literally for the last 50 or 60 years, maybe longer.
Here’s an example. I ask women all the time when they talk about the advantage men have. I say, name me one reproductive right that a man has, just one. I’ve heard women yell, “I had to carry a baby,” or something, but I’m kind of like, okay, but what’s another one? You know, they can’t really name one.
Men really don’t have any reproductive rights in our society. And there are a lot of other disadvantages. And I think a lot of women get on social media, and they complain nonstop, but I think women get accolades on social media and in society for complaining and denigrating men. And if men even say anything, they are instantly ostracized.
John Hawkins: I agree with you 100% on that. I think we’re closer probably to a matriarchy than a patriarchy. Not that I think we’re a matriarchy, but I think if you were picking which direction we were going in, it’s definitely the matriarchy direction.
I think there’s a perception there, rightly or wrongly, that the men at the top of the pyramid these days are drowning in women. And a lot of the other men are struggling to find girlfriends. So, you went out in the real world and talked to a lot of guys of all different ages and in all different places. How would you evaluate that? True, false?
Dr. Helen Smith: I’ve talked to some very good-looking men, which most people would consider, you know, eight, nines, tens… You know, I actually talked to a man one day, and he told me that he was at a bar and he’s very tall, he’s 6’3”, he’s great looking, nice guy. He said he was at a bar and all he did was say, “Hi” to a woman. And I don’t even think he liked her necessarily; he was just being friendly and just walked by. And the woman literally came back up to him while he was with his friends and punched him. Like full force in the back, punched him. And I’m like, “Oh my gosh, like, what did you do?” And he said he was just sort of stunned.
But I think that women now will denigrate any man, especially on the other extreme. I think you have men who they perceive to be good looking, who some women are just like, “Oh, that man thinks he’s good looking, I’ll bring him down a notch or two.” And that was one of the things some of the men told me, who I would consider to be quite nice, good-looking men. They told me that they were treated poorly. And in fact, on the dating side, some of them told me, you know, it’s very difficult. If you do get a date with a woman, she may ghost you. Even getting to that point is really hard.
So, I agree that the men who are at that top 1%, who maybe have a degree, who make a lot of money, who are over six feet - do they have women? Sure, probably. But I think even those guys, I’ve talked to many of them who still don’t have any luck. And if they do, those men are often denigrated on social media.
I talked to somebody recently who told me about their friend who’s a great-looking guy. You know, if you’re dating a couple of women, next thing you know, you’re on, “Are we dating the same guy?” on Facebook, with women denigrating you and saying you’re a pervert, saying you’re abusive, saying you’re just a bad date.
I think today’s women, some of them are sadistic, honestly. And even the ones who seem okay, it’s so easy if things don’t work out or go a woman’s way to get back at a man now, whether it be on a website, social ostracism… And I think that’s part of the culture being feminized, is that women tend to, more so than men, to use their power to ostracize and to denigrate other people and to gossip.
And more and more men, I hate to say it, are a little this way too. Like the men have become more feminized. In our society, to be feminine is to get rewarded. So, if men try to pretend like they’re feminine, you won’t get rewarded with dates, but you’ll get rewarded in society.
John Hawkins: Yeah, I could see a lot of what you’re talking about. I remember one time there was a girl I was talking to, this was a few years ago, and I knew she was very into me. And we were talking about meeting up, and she made a crack about men in general and sent me like a little picture of a knife holder. It was a man with knives driven through it:
It was supposed to be funny, I guess. It’s not like a threat or something, but you’re looking at it and thinking, “Well, if you think that’s really entertaining just because it’s a man with knives in him, what does that say about you?” It’s a little disturbing. There’s a lot of that undercurrent, so I know what you mean on that.
Dr. Helen Smith: Yeah, it’s an undercurrent. When I talk to women, they have absolutely zero clue about men. It’s just always amazing to me that the women, when you actually talk to them, they think no matter what, a man owes them.
One woman I talked to once told me that she was upset because the guy she was going to marry didn’t really want to get married because he owned a lot of assets and land. And she was like, “he’s afraid that I’m going to try to take it.” But she goes, “If we’re married, that stuff’s kind of mine.” With women, it’s always, “my stuff’s my stuff.” And for men, you know, “if men have anything, it’s my stuff too.” And women think that’s just not a problem. They can’t understand why any man would not accept that.
In the same way, I think you’re right. I think they think it’s funny. Everybody laughs when the man gets hurt, right, it’s funny. Whereas if a woman gets hurt, it’s tragic. And it’s been like that for pretty much forever. But I think we’re starting to see sort of a blowback. I think women go around; they try to act like men. And then if you call them on it, they start crying like a girl. And so, I think that dichotomy is what’s driving everybody, like it’s maddening.
John Hawkins: Oh yeah, I think there are a lot of women who want to do that, and this is just something I think we encourage in society. Like, you want to be the sheltered little flower who needs to be taken care of and protected? Or can you do everything as good as a man, except better? And it’s like, well, it depends on which one benefits them more in each situation. Five minutes apart, they could be telling you, “I can do anything a man could do.” Then it’s, “That swimsuit calendar on the wall traumatized me.” I mean, which of these is it? Pick a lane.
Dr. Helen Smith: Well, remember, it’s not a matter of picking; they’ve got the power. You go to an HR department, which is full of women; they’re all going to take your side. As is every white knight in the world. So, it’s to their benefit; they wield the power in whatever way. And you kind of wonder where it will end, right?
John Hawkins: I know what you mean. Let’s go to the next thing.
This was my favorite piece of advice from a man in your book:
My advice is “don’t settle, take your time to find the right person.” “How do you know the right person?” I asked. “Do they give as much as they take?” he said. “This sounds so simple,” I thought, “but it isn’t.” In our society, men are expected to give protection, affection, financial support, and a host of other things in a relationship, and women are told that they are enough as they are — they give too much already. This is a myth for the most part, but one that many men have swallowed. If you want happiness in a relationship, ask yourself if she gives as much as she takes. If the answer is “Yes,” you are a lucky guy. If the answer is “No,” think long and hard about whether this should be a permanent relationship.
And I thought that was so great because I thought back to every good relationship I ever had. And it’s like, “Yeah, the women gave, too.” And you hear so many women online who are like, “Well, the reward you get for dating me is me.”
Dr. Helen Smith: I think it is great advice. And I think it is absolutely so true. And I see so many men who, with their wives or even with girlfriends, it’s like they’re just, they don’t expect the woman to do anything. Society says women don’t really have to do anything. And I think that the woman does need to give at least 50%. And if she’s not, there’s something wrong.
And I think today’s men don’t have a lot of good advice because remember, most of the men now, at least a fourth or more, don’t have a dad. Haven’t you done work on, you know, like advice for guys? You know, I know you’ve written a lot about this. And I do think that men have to look elsewhere.
…Honestly, the advice you get from men now isn’t that good either because all the men have been taught kind of feminized information. I saw a young guy, about maybe 17, asking an older man for advice. And I could hear him telling the older man, like, “Oh, well, my girlfriend, she is ignoring me. She really doesn’t want to talk to me. When I see her in the hallway at school, she ignores me”. And I’m thinking to myself, “Just walk away, because the girl obviously isn’t interested in you,” but the advice the man gave was, “Bring her flowers.” And I thought, “You made him a simp.” This is the type of stupid advice that young guys are getting. I think that’s why more and more men are turning to the manosphere. And then a lot of guys are just giving up on all this, right? I mean, a lot of guys are just looking at it and saying, “It’s just not worth my time. I’m going to play video games.”
John Hawkins: I think you’re right.
And on the advice thing, it’s so hard because one, online, you have so many different philosophies and so much bad advice.
But then you get to people who are successful. Well, there’s like a line. Let’s say you go back, I don’t know, 30 years. Everything is so radically different. I heard somebody say that if you got married 20 or 30 years back, it was like getting on the last chopper out of Vietnam. You made it out, and now it’s like everybody else is left in that hellhole. And that’s kind of where we are.
Dr. Helen Smith: I think women’s standards have gone up so much. And of course, there’s the whole shift where women think they’re hot stuff from going to some indoctrinated college where they’re told that they’re all that, and now they need a man who’s got more education than them. I think what those women want is a rarity. Those men who are over six feet, have a college degree, all of the things they’re looking for, it’s something like 1% of the population or less. And then the women themselves are told you’re just enough as you are, so you just see this situation where you’ve got just big gaps in what people are looking for. So, most men are out there trying to find a nice woman.
And that’s where you come into something you talked about in one of your Substacks about men going and finding younger women. And it’s not necessarily that they’re young, it’s just that the men are looking for women who like men.
Also, if you’ve got that many stipulations, it just makes it a lot harder to find someone. I think there are a lot of good guys out there who maybe don’t have all of the credentials that people want that would make perfectly fine and good husbands, but those women are bypassing those guys. We also see all the research pointing to the fact that about 76% of those guys in high school want to get married. One that surprised me was that all the men wanted kids. The men love children. We always hear about, “Oh, women love children.” A lot of women don’t like children at all. I mean, all the women now are told, “You don’t need any kids. You don’t need a man, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.” A lot of the men told me they wanted three or four children.
We’re asking men to put themselves out there, to improve themselves, to do this, to do that. And then you may not even get anybody. And I think it’s just a frustrating place to be. And I think a lot of men are just saying, “it’s just not worth it.” And even those men who say, “Maybe it’s worth it,” are finding out they may end up in divorce court. So, I think that there are no protections in society for men. And I think that makes it even a little bit more dangerous for them. So, a lot of men are opting out, staying away from women.
John Hawkins: First of all, I just wanted to note, that yes, you are very successful. Of course, you’ve been married for a long time. You got a great, high-value man. Right? You can tell Glenn, I said that about him. Lol.
Dr. Helen Smith: Oh, that’s great. I’ll have to tell him.
John Hawkins: You’ve had a successful career. Before you started books about men, you made a name for yourself writing about violent kids. When I used to do my conservative page, we used to be a little wilder than they are today. We’d have like a hottest women contest with judges and everything – and you made that list.
In fact, this is a true story. Glenn Reynolds was a big deal in the blogosphere. And at one point, people didn’t really know about you. I put up a bikini picture of you that he posted and was like, “This is Glenn Reynolds’ wife.” It was like one of the highest traffic things on our page for a long time.
Dr. Helen Smith: I know that picture. That was really sweet. I just laugh at Glenn. Glenn’s just like, “Oh, I’m proud of you. I’ll just stick up your picture.” I’m like, “Please don’t put that up.” But I know I was very honored to be on your hottest list. I looked forward to it every year.
John Hawkins: Point being, you’ve pretty much hit the full trifecta. Successful career, successful marriage, beautiful.
So, let me just throw this out to you. This is our last thing. If you were talking to 18, 19, 20-year-old men and women, give me advice for the men and then give me advice for the women. What would you tell them? What would you say?
Dr. Helen Smith: I think for men, I would tell them exactly what the other guy said. I would say look for somebody who really is giving you a lot, and don’t settle. We used to always tell women, “Don’t settle.”
Too many women have become the men that they hate. They’ve become self-centered, controlling. That’s how too many women are. What I would tell men is make sure that the woman respects you. And if you see her doing things that make you feel that she’s trying to be controlling or take you away from your friends or doesn’t allow you to be an autonomous person, I would say, “think long and hard.”
To a woman, I would say, you know, show respect. Show the man that you care. And don’t listen to your girlfriends. A lot of women run to their girlfriends, and they say, “Oh, what’s your advice for my guy?” Don’t do it. I would try talking directly to your guy.
And the other thing, in my marriage, I have to say, there’s not one time I’ve ever talked about my relationship. I don’t. Not once. Don’t talk about it, be about it. Show that person how you care. Don’t talk about it all the time.
And I would say to both sexes that it’s the action that tells you what that person’s about. And I would say the reason my book was so important to me is that it’s really educational. It’s educating people about why these things matter, why it matters if we care about men. And we have lost that human interaction, both through the Internet, through dating sites, and through our interactions with each other.
And remember that the person you’re talking to is always a human being, whether they be a man or a woman, and treat people that way. Would that always work? No, but you would be closer to finding that person you want than you would if you were simply making up a list of these things that you want. But I think that people can still get together. I think you just have to have a little bit more patience and look in places that you may not have thought of.
John Hawkins: Helen, it has been a delight. It has been far, far too long since I’ve talked to you. You are awesome. Thank you for taking the time to do this. I really appreciate it, and I appreciate you. Once again, if people want to read your latest book, it’s “His Side: Men Speak Out on Dating, Marriage, and Life in America.”